Author Topic: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform  (Read 355 times)

TrapperL

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I'm not sure this is good or bad. This piece splits the law in regards to the rules of law. It's not a rifle so it doesn't have to conform to the barrel length. Being that it has rifling but that rifling is straight- no spin or twist, it's not a shotgun. By definition, it's a firearm. Here's a vid explaining how they came to build such a "firearm" and believe it or not, accuracy with no twist in the rifling doesn't seem to be a problem. Should be interesting to see what types of bullets they're going to use in this thing. But it will shoot any 300BLK ammo at 4 MOA. They're supposed to come out with it in 223 and 308. Not sure I like this in regards to how it gets around some of the laws.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyL7i7D_5kk&feature=youtu.be

TexasRedneck

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 05:49:42 PM »
Lemme see......4 MOA.....

Okay - I'm done laughing.  In case you missed it, their shotgun is 4 MOA was at 50 yards....

IMHO, it's one of those "80 percent builds" gone completely off the rails - at that price point, I'll just go with my SBR w/the $200 tax stamp and have something accurate that works.  The "work-around" guns just always strike me as a bad idea that should've been left on the bar napkin.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 05:52:33 PM by TexasRedneck »
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TrapperL

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 10:29:11 PM »
One of the articles on the gun used in the vid says the 4 MOA accuracy is for the 11" barrel. A barrel length of 20" yields 1MOA and tighter groups with ball ammo in 5.56. The difference being the straight rifling vs a twist rifling barrel. I can only imagine that IF that's true, the increase in velocity must be a lot for the same powder loads. You might even have to back up to much faster powders to get it all to go off since bullet resistance is nil. Could be interesting, could be pure pony pucks. It would sure level the playing field in regards to what twist you wanted for the barrel. Some of the cartridges are mighty picky about the twist rate....like the 6.5x06, as one example. Some of the old cartridges would be the same issue like an old 38-55 that pretty much demands the same 220gr bullet or accuracy suffers. Could make getting reasonable accuracy a breeze.....or a perfect storm. HHHMMM, I wonder if should ask if they can make a 30/338 mag barrel for my 40X bench gun? Probably not.

TexasRedneck

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 09:46:09 AM »
Think about it....twist rate is needed for accuracy - without it, I can't imagine it maintaining a stable trajectory.  They rifled cannons for a reason...... :D
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TrapperL

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 04:59:26 PM »
We've all been trained or conditioned to think that accuracy can ONLY be had with the correct amount of spin or imparted gyroscopic stability added to the flight of the bullet. According to these guys, there are other ways to get the stability without the spin. Lets think about rockets. They don't spin at any appreciable rate. So how do they manage to hit a postage stamp size target at miles? They use the fins at the tail of the rocket to create enough drag that adds to the stability. That's just one way and there are several others that they talked about.

Wolfwood

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2018, 07:32:50 PM »
 :PThey actually are working on finned projectiles. Which could be interesting- but forget about casting your own. Sound alike they will be individually cnc'd. Can't imagine what the price per round will be for loaded carts.

Also I posted earlier or thought I did that it has 2 things imo going for it. It is A-very good looking. And B- points out the extreme silliness of some of our regulations. The question is whether or not looking slick and making a point outweigh twisted rifling and the price tag.

The decreased friction is a neat thought though I hadn't thought of that. If these guys started out trying to make a gun to keep the ATF regs happy and ended up discovering the next step in ballistics technology... That would be pretty funny I think.

I wonder where I posted that other response.

TexasRedneck

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2018, 10:04:21 PM »
We've all been trained or conditioned to think that accuracy can ONLY be had with the correct amount of spin or imparted gyroscopic stability added to the flight of the bullet. According to these guys, there are other ways to get the stability without the spin. Lets think about rockets. They don't spin at any appreciable rate. So how do they manage to hit a postage stamp size target at miles? They use the fins at the tail of the rocket to create enough drag that adds to the stability. That's just one way and there are several others that they talked about.

And those fins move to allow for course corrections.  Gonna make for a purty expensive boolit, ah think.......
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TrapperL

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2018, 10:54:31 PM »
The early rockets like the V2 did not having moving fins and neither did some of our NASA rockets. It did however carry an adjusting exhaust for guidance.  There's a reason that the bombs you dad road with during WWII had fins on the tailend of those bombs- stability. During the early development of rifles, the smooth bore was the common barrel. The French came up with a bullet that loaded just like any other muzzleloader but the base of the bullet was concave. Doesn't look like any big deal but as the bullet came out of the barrel, the gases behind it would actually open the thin part of the bullet at the tailing edge causing drag at the rear of the bullet. Accuracy was greatly improved with man size shots at 800 yds all but guaranteed with the right firearm and shooter. I've always been amazed at the early firearms, some of which are incredibly accurate like the Whitworths that the Confederates used as a sniper rifle. Cost the south a smooth 10,000.00 for one...and that's 1865 dollars.

TexasRedneck

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 09:04:22 PM »
Yeah.....but you ain't gonna get that accuracy out to 1k yards with the same ballistic coefficients that you will with rifled guns.  I realize that any gun made after 1903 is still uber-modern to you, but......
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Wolfwood

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 03:10:12 PM »
Here's a thought would this maybe count as rifling enough to allow those shotgun revolvers to pattern halfway decent? Or would it change them to AOWs

TrapperL

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Re: It's not a rifle, not a shotgun, it's a firearm on an AR platform
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2018, 10:24:03 PM »
Speaking of shotguns, which is along this same topic, 4 years ago I was present at some ballistic testing for the State. The test firearm was a normal Rem 870 with a full choke, no rifling but the shotgun had a scope on it. As I recall, a 3- 9 scope. The target was 100 yds. This was ammo prepped by the Barnes folks. The shooter shot a 1" group with this 12 ga shotgun using a slug. Again, no rifling, a smooth bore. I would have never believed a non rifled barrel would ever produce that kind of accuracy. Frankly, I had my doubts about it hitting the 36" square target. The projectile goes along the same theory about stabilization doesn't mean you have to spin it. There are other ways to get the same stabilization. We also tested some ammo I put together involving saboted slugs. Again, accuracy was far better than expected especially with a smooth bore barrel.

In shooting the 1000 yd game,there are a lot of cartridges that can't go that distance even with a rifled barrel. It has more to do with retained velocity and bullet design. Any lever rifle would be a poor choice due to the bullet design required for the tube mag. But once the bullet falls sub sonic, it loses it's gyroscopic stability. Some of the long distance bullet designs you see today are designed just for being stable once it falls sub sonic. The  105gr 6mm VLD was among the first for that game. But not just everything will shoot the long range game. I played the 880yd game for decades it seems with a Rem 40X 30/338mag using a custom designed bullet from Olin that weighted in at 190gr. Key was a consistent 2700'ps muzzle speed. Groups of under 4" were common at 880yds. I always wanted but never had the opportunity to shoot the mile. I have buds that shoot that game in Kentucky.